Sunday, July 12, 2009

Value of people

There was a discussion around the dinner table the other night about "How much is a person worth?"
The context for the discussion was trade: "Is it ethical for a company to move because the labor in another country is lower? Isn't that exploiting those low-pay workers offshore?" Well, if you can make the same quality product cheaper elsewhere but you don't move, your company will probably have to compete with someone who does move, and you will go out of business. As long as the workers have a choice, i.e. it's not a one-company town, then the workers get to decide whether the wages are high enough or not; if not, they go elsewhere.
From there, the question arose as to what a person's intrinsic value is. The Compassionate member of the family held that each person is priceless; the Economist insisted that a person is worth what someone else will pay for his knowledge or services.
They're both right, since, as BB pointed out in the comments to a previous post, it depends on who's doing the pricing. I may value a random person on another continent at zero--I wouldn't pay anything to support him. Some unknown furniture worker might be worth $200 per year to me, as shown by what I'm willing to pay for the furniture. I don't know him, so there's no value in the relationship. On the other hand, I have friends to whom I've given hundreds of dollars, when I didn't really have a hundred to spare. And there are some people--my wife, my son, a friend or two--for whom I can say that I've sat down and thought it through and decided that yes, I would be willing to die for them if the need arose, or to support them indefinitely (however, Josh, you still need to plan on getting a job--Ed.). The value is in the relationship. The corollary is that you--I--need not to be a hermit, but to go out and create relationships.

8 comments:

Anonymous said...

The Economist can still quantify the value you place on that relationship, he just has to go dig out a few more subtle tools.

Laserlight said...

Hm...how would you value "I would take a bullet for you"?

Anonymous said...

I'd value "I'd take a bullet for you" pretty highly. That's why I value armed forces personel so highly.

But what is value? The Economist likes to couch things in terms he works with, implying monetary value is the value which matters. There are a lot of unhappy rich people so I suspect that this is a very incomplete outlook.

The first part of the value of a person is the quantity which allowed the founding fathers to write about inalienable rights that are self-evident. These aspects are a priori characteristics of being human. They are not something you can justify, they are initial assumptions.

The second part of the value of a person is what they contribute to your life - wisdom, fun, love in all its forms, an income, passion, humour, entertainment, education, etc.

Neither of these aspects is inherently easily comprehensible in a strictly monetary model. That model, if one actually used that as a sole barometer of a person's worth, simply ends in unhappiness and is (IMO) an incomplete or immature world view.

I don't value my many friends for what they can do for me (as in favours or revenues or physical help), I value them because they are good people, are the sort who build good societies, and are the people who've walked with me through tough parts of my life and helped, in small ways and large, in those times. They are the people who share my interests, some of my outlook, and with whom I've shared many hours and even more laughs. They are the people I value and who reciprocally value me I believe.

What is a person worth? The right one is worth a lifetime (gf, fiance, wife, husband, father, mother, son, daughter, etc). The right one is worth a life offered or taken to preserve them (brother in arms, very good friend, family member). The ones that bring worthwhile quality into your life are worth whatever it takes to sustain the relationship.

And I also don't see that you can justify moving off to cheaper labour just because someone else might do so. That standard isn't a very good way to setup any sort of moral or ethical system because it is the short road to the least and lowest....

Lux Mentis the Lazy

Laserlight said...

The question is how do you define "value". If you define it as "what you will actually take action for or send money for", then most of us don't place much actual value on, say, a Bangladeshi or San or whoever. We might pledge $10 a month for a year or something to feed the starving kids of East Somethingistan, or chip in $50 to the Red Cross after a tsunami, but we probably spend a lot more on our dog or fish or movies.

If you define value as "this person/animal deserves to be left alone, not imprisoned or killed or harassed", that's a pretty undemanding view of "value".

Incidentally, we just received our copy of A Crime So Monstrous. It appears you can buy a 12-14 year old girl as a sex slave in Haiti for $50-100.

Lux Mentis said...

Most of us in the West, by your standard, don't value people elsewhere. We permit slave trading, prostitution of minors, involuntary organ donation, genocide, and a variety of other human horrors throughout the world. Of course, one of the sops we use to console ourselves is 'they are an independent country and we have no jurisidiction' or 'this isn't our responsibility'.

Pragmatic concerns would prevent us from attacking these issues vigorously. People's lack of a desire to go and sacrifice for people they've never met, even innocent children, further complicates matters.

Your comment about an undemanding definition of value is a bit fuzzy.

Do you mean defining the value as simply saying that without backing it up? I'd say that is a pretty weak sense of value, if all you'll do is talk about what rights people should have.

If on the other hand, we say that the sentiment you defined was backed up by action, rather than words, I don't think that's a weak definition of value at all. It may be incomplete, but it would already be almost infinitely better than what most of us do today.

If acting to preserve someones right to be left alone, not killed, not harrassed, and presumably not sold into prostitution or slavery is an undemanding view of value, then we currently fail even that minimal definition.

Economics can't be the basis for a moral definition of the value of an individual. Economics is inherently amoral. It might be ethical, but it is amoral.

Laserlight said...

What I mean by "undemanding value" is that I may value the liberty of the Uighurs against the Han Chinese oppressors, but I haven't sent a dime to the Uighur Defense Fund or even seen whether such a fund exists, nor have I called the PRC embassy or my congressman, and I'm certainly not flying to Asia to join the insurrection. I value it, but I spend more time on watching Stargate on Hulu, and I spend more money on a milkshake. So in order for me to say I value it, I have to have a pretty elastic and undemanding view of "value".

Lux Mentis said...

I see what you are saying, but the implication here is that everything which you may value in your life you have to act upon. I think that might be exceedingly impractical as a viewpoint.

There are things I value but realistically cannot act on. I pick my battles, but I'm not sure that means I don't value the other things. I have to choose which of my values I can support.

Values are an internal concept and I'm not sure that supporting them is required for those values to exist.

On the other hand, I do understand your point - holding a value that you elect not to act upon vs. holding a value you act upon - different results certainly ensue and people may reasonably wonder if a claimed value you don't act upon is actually a value or if you are prevaricating.

In the real world, you can only address a finite number of the ills in the world. They may not even be the most significant of the ills in your system of value, just the ones which you have the greatest efficiency of returns in acting upon.

For example, assume that the prostitution of young girls is one of the things that I find most disturbing in the world. Yet, at the same time, something I know little about how to combat and believe to be something complex and challenging to combat. At the same time, I have a flood nearby and I have a straightforward and direct path to address this problem - donating to the local Red Cross.

It does not mean that the flood victim's plight is more important than the child being forced into prostitution, it just means I have apparent, readily accessible means to act upon the one crisis and that I can therefore yield the best efficiency of return here.

This works along the logic of 'think globally, act locally' or 'think morally/ethically, act efficiently'.

Laserlight said...

I can just see myself facing St Peter.
StP: So, what was most important to you?
Me: Preventing slavery
StP: Really? How many slaves did you rescue?
Me: Um, none.
StP: Put any slavers out of business?
Me: Er, well, no.
StP: Worked to change the laws?
Me: Well....
StP: Donated to organizations that were working on it?
Me: Not as such, no.
StP: Studied the problem?
Me: Um...I bought a book once. I was meaning to read it.
StP: And this is something you valued highly, you say?